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How to "Hear," and "See" From Don D. Jackson's Interactional Therapy Perspective 

-Wendel A. Ray

The therapeutic skill of Don Jackson is legendary. His approach to understanding human behavior derives from a unique personal genius for the incorporation, synthesis and operationalization of complex relational concepts. Early on during their research, when Gregory Bateson's team began to study the communication patterns of schizophrenic patients, Jackson was brought into the project as a full time consultant largely because of his reputation for success in the therapy of schizophrenics. This fortuitous event led to Jackson becoming the clinical supervisor for Gregory Bateson, Jay Haley, John Weakland, and William Fry and later for Richard Fisch and Paul Watzlawick, Antonio Ferreria, and Irving Yalom. Remembered as an incredibly gifted therapist, with only a few exceptions (Haley & Hoffman, 1967; Ray, 1995) his therapeutic technique has not been described in any detail.  An unfortunate result of this dearth of detailed evaluation of Jackson's actual clinical work is that his brilliant clinical abilities have become the stuff of myth and legend rather than the subject of close study and learning. 

Nonetheless, the esteem with which so many others who, themselves, are considered brilliant founders of family and brief therapy hold Jackson's clinical abilities is impressive.  Thanks to the foresight of John H. Weakland, 92 audio and eight film recordings of Jackson, most of which are recordings of individual, and conjoint marital and family interviews made between June 1955 and November 1967, survive. Based upon the study of these actual recordings, a few general aspects of Jackson's clinical approach have been reported elsewhere (Ray, 1995), but it has taken the author eighteen years and countless hours spent listening to recordings of Jackson's therapy, and studying the writings of Jackson, and those with which he was most closely associated (H.S. Sullivan, Bateson, Haley, Weakland, and Milton Erickson) to reach a point where I feel familiar enough with his work to report on what I believe to be one of the central aspects of his assessment and treatment method.     

A key to understanding Jackson's approach is realization that he was heavily influenced by four years of training with Harry Stack Sullivan.  Jay Haley, Robert Cohen and others have commented on Sullivan's influence on Jackson.  Scrutiny of Jackson's actual clinical work reveals that he adopted wholeheartedly a core aspect of Sullivan's interviewing technique.  Sullivan, however, only saw patients individually and never interviewed members of a patient's family. Part of, and it is emphasized only a part of, Jackson's brilliance derived from adopting Sullivan's basic interviewing technique and then extending it's use to understanding the nature of couple and family interaction in the present moment.  In doing so Jackson can legitimately be seen as one of, if not the principal creator of systemically oriented family and brief therapy (Bateson, 1970; Jackson, 1954, 1957). The technique pioneered by Jackson allows the therapist to "hear," and "see" dyadic and triadic processes of interaction in the present moment of the interview. This article will describe this assessment and intervention technique.

In the introduction to Sullivan’s The Interpersonal Theory of Psychiatry (1953), Mabel Blake Cohen writes

Harry Stack Sullivan always listened to the data with this question in mind, "Where is the flow of communication being interfered with by the threat of anxiety?"  Such a point can be identified by noting where the patient shifted from a presumably significant subject, where the security operations of the subject began to intensify, or where the various somatic accompaniments of anxiety began to appear. Having identified such a point of change, a therapist is then in a position to recall, or inquire about, what was going on just prior to the shift.  This technique, when grasped and correctly used, gives a precise and reliable method for identifying and investigating patterns of difficulty in living (p. xvii).

According to Sullivan's Interpersonal Theory, "a personality can never be isolated from the complex of interpersonal relations in which the person lives and has his being (1953, pp. 10)."  From Sullivan's perspective, anxiety is a singularly distressing felt experience which is a product of intense, denied, rejection by significant others in an ongoing important relationship ( significant others on whom persons depend for their very survival.  Prestige in the eyes of important others is vital.  Anxiety is experienced whenever a person has acted in a way that is not acceptable to his or her significant others, (particularly the parenting ones), and can be so debilitating that a person will do just about anything to avoid or reduce the experience (Ray, 1998, p xxi-wwii). 

Jackson’s grasp of the implications of Sullivan’s conception of anxiety was one of his major contributions to the Bateson Projects, and can be understood as a major forerunner to the concept of the double-bind (Bateson, Jackson, Haley & Weakland, 1956). Jackson was a master of being able, in the immediate clinical moment, to pick up on "where the flow of communication is being interfered with by the threat of anxiety."  Watching films, and especially by listening to audio recordings of Jackson, it is clear that he was extremely adept at noticing and being able to immediately and directly address "such a point by noticing where the patient shifted from a presumably significant subject, where the security operations of the subject began to intensify, or where the various somatic accompaniments of anxiety began to appear." 

As remarkable as this skill is when working with an individual, what is truly impressive is to experience Jackson extend the technique to track interaction between two spouses in marital therapy, or, as can be seen in the following brief example, between a "psychotic" teenage daughter and her mother and father in the real time transactions of a family interview:

Jill:  I don't mean to hurt her feelings.

Jackson: I wonder if she was crying because she was hurt? Has that been established? 

Mother:  Me you mean?

Jackson: Yeah. This would be an easy assumption, but I don't know if it's so. Do you have any idea?

Mother: A good deal of the time it is.  You mean now?

Jackson: But I mean right now.  Were you crying because you were hurt, you think?

Mother:  What do you mean?  (Crying) Because I'm sad?

Jackson:  Yeah, because you responded to your daughter with, I think, a rather touching closeness.  I don't think it was just hurt

Jill:  Well I supported her and it was upsetting

Mother:  No that is not what upset me.  Something that you have never understood is the relationship between dad and me

Jill: Yes I've understood it, better than you think.  

Mother: I don't think it's possible for a person your age to understand it 

Jill: Oh, what's my age? I have an awful lot of insight and I've been told by other people that I have a great deal more insight than most people my age.

Jackson: but you haven't been married for a long time.  It makes a difference.  

Father: You can never understand.

Jill: I've seen you two more objectively than you think I do.

Jackson: I would buy that, but you still have something to learn here.  

Jill:  Oh, sure

Mother: I think you underestimate the feelings daddy and I have for each other

Jill: No. I think that you have a deep, deep, and unusual love that not very many people find.  And I wouldn't ruin it for the world.  And I don't want to hurt either of you, and I don't mean to hurt either of you by anything that I say in here.

Mother: (In a wounded voice) We don't take it that way.

Jackson: We are off on this hurt kick now, and I don't think this is what was important.  Your mother was responding out of passion, not out of being hurt by you, because there is something touching about what you have been through, as you know only too well. 

Mother:  I think you have put your finger on a very important thing Doctor, because that is exactly my feeling.

Jill:  But it is an issue of why I went through this. I had to sleep with people around me screaming. Everything locked, no one trusting you.  People really crazy around you, really bad, permanent cases.  (Crying uncontrollably) You just don't know, you just have no idea.  When the only thing that was wrong with me was emotional. 

Jackson:  Now all of a sudden you get on the bandwagon and bail your mother out.  Your mother stops crying and you start.  Now, I think this is one of the&ldots;

Jill:  I know.  I still need to release a lot of emotion over that. 

Jackson:  You have had some chance to release some emotion in the last&ldots;

Jill: No I haven't.

Jackson: I think you have.  I don't mean that you still don't have a lot still in you about this.  You will never forget this experience, but I think it is important for you to realize that just when I was talking to your mother, you stepped in with your problem.

Jill: Right.

Jackson: And this may be part of the eternal triangle that we've been talking about.  That it has got three sides, and that each person is&ldots;

Jill:  But&ldots;

Jackson: in his own way keeps boosting it along.  

Jill: How is this part of that?  

Jackson:  Well, I think I understood your mother a little better, and just at that moment is when you started on the business about the horrors of the mental hospital. Now I agree with you about that.

Mother: We all do.

Jackson: But I think we also have to understand that there are an interplay of forces here. 

Jill:  I don't see how the forced work.

Jackson: That's right, and I don't see it too clearly either, except when I see shifts like this it alerts me to them.

This technique for tracking interactional process represents one of the cornerstone principal for what later became known as systemic or interactionally focused family and brief therapy.  The essence of the technique permeates Haley's strategic approach; Weakland, Watzlawick, and Fisch's Brief Therapy approach; the Milan Systemic family Therapy model.  These models, in turn, have influenced most current brief and family therapy approaches. 

As foundational as this technique is, of equal importance is the incredible array of behaviors Jackson manifests while managing a  therapeutic conversation.  Verbatim transcripts of an interview are invaluable for making detailed study of therapeutic process and clinical technique. Most of the nuances of Jackson’s technique of conversing with a client, however, cannot be adequately appreciated without hearing the incredible range and variation of inflection, tone, and control over his presentation of self – i.e. the countless aspects of communication that do not evidence themselves in mere words.  Jackson’s ability to manage a complex interaction with a couple or family, his shift from no nonsense refusal to allow the client to wander off into tangential issues at one moment in an interview, only to be followed by gentle, empathic understanding at another point in a conversation is uncanny - and essential to his successful management of complex cases. 

Jackson once wrote that the task of therapy is for the therapist to comprehend the pattern of interaction in which the symptom is embedded, then to behave in such a way with the client (s) that the pattern must change, making the symptom no longer necessary (Jackson, 1967). Listening to or watching a recording of Jackson in action with a family, the viewer becomes aware that this statement was not merely armchair philosophy.

References:

Bateson, G. (1970). Audio recording of the 1st Don D. Jackson Memorial Address, Palo Alto, CA.

Bateson, G., Jackson, D., Haley, J., & Weakland, J. (1956).  Toward a theory of schizophrenia, Behavioral Science.

Cohen, M. (1953). Introduction. In H. S. Sullivan, H. S. (Author), The Interpersonal Theory of Psychiatry, NY: WW Norton,  (p. xvii).

_______ , & Hoffman, L. (1967). The eternal triangle.  In J. Haley & L Hoffman, Techniques of Family Therapy, NY: Basic.

Jackson, D. (1954). Some factors influencing the Oedipus complex. Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 23, 566-581.

_______. (1957). The question of family homeostasis. The Psychiatric Quarterly Supplement, 31 (part 1), 79-90.

_______. (1967). The individual and the larger contexts. Family Process, 6 (2), September, 139-147.

Ray, W. Introduction – The relevance of brief therapy in the current managed care environment. In W. Ray & S. de Shazer (Eds.), (1998). Evolving Brief Therapies: In Honor of John H. Weakland. Iowa City, IA: Geist & Russell, Ltd.

______. (1995). The interactional therapy of Don D. Jackson. In J. Weakland & W. Ray  (Eds.), Propagations: Thirty Years of Influence from the Mental Research Institute, pp. 37-70. NY: Haworth.

Sullivan, H. S. (1953). Conceptions of Modern Psychiatry, NY: WW Norton, p. 10.hange the buttons to the left and the title above to your final version and re-save the template page.


 

 

When Is Change Really Real

-AN EXCERPT OF A CONVERSATION I HAD ON THE INTERNET.

-By: Nick Triantafillou

From Nick:

As I had mentioned in my intro one of my interest over the past few years has been in applying SFT approaches in my work with children and their families served by residential treatment.  The agency that I work for is one of a few agency that still provides long term care for these often displaced children.  As you may imagine introducing a SFT/Brief Therapy framework into this type of social context has proven challenging but also very rewarding.

I have found that by the time these children reach our agency there has been a lot invested by the larger system (ie. legal system, child welfare system, family) in viewing the child as the problem.  It is as if the child just becomes suspended in time and the only time the larger system pays and real attention to their behaviour is when the child screws up thereby confirming everyone's invested beliefs that the child is the problem.

Our introduction of SFT approaches have proven useful in shaking up this type of marginalization.  It has helped both workers and families become involved in noticing differences and become more active in co-creating solutions.  One of the difficulties that I still struggle with is helping larger systems believe that the changes they are noticing in the children are "real".   Even after children have made gains in their social, academic and family relations goal areas that adults in their lives can acknowledge as significant, at times it seems they remain in a state of disbelief...waiting for the child to make a mistake so their "real colours" can show themselves.

I have come to appreciate how difficult it is for adults in these children's lives to break out of the box/category they have used for such a long time to understand the child and his/her behaviour.  I have found noticing tasks, exceptions and practice areas useful in allowing both adults and the child to give themselves permission to think, talk and experience their relationships differently.  Yet the child's past difficulties continue to haunt their relationship with the adults in their life...and often seem to leave children further disheartened that they can never be good enough for the adults in their life in particular around the issue of going home.

Child social service workers in particular have great difficulty "legally acknowledging" any progress as being substantial since it goes against their legal arguments for keeping the child in care.

Having said all this, I was hoping to spur some discussion around some of these issues in particular how do we help people recognize that changes they are noticing are substantial?  When is real really real?  How can one avoid the dilemma of the larger system viewing SFT approaches as just being a polite way to "notice the positives" and waiting on edge for the 'bad' behaviour to reappear and reconfirm previously held views about the child?  Anyone have any similar experiences?

From Keren Suberri:

I work with Residential Tx for adolescents and much of your post resonates with me.

You asked:

 <snip>How do we help people recognize that changes they are noticing are substantial?  When is real, really real?  How can one avoid the dilemma of the larger system viewing SFT approaches as just being a polite way to "notice the positives" and waiting on edge for the 'bad' behaviour to reappear and reconfirm previously held views about the child? <end snip>

With regards to the staff who work with youths on a day-to-day basis and with regard to the families of the kids, I have found the combination of a few things at once has been helpful in addressing the concerns that you have raised.  One involves taking a step back and letting people do more of their own discovering about the changes kids are making.  Talking about the positive changes in a very 'tentative' way, can open up some more space for other folks to do their own highlighting and 'cheerleading'.  Asking lots of questions of others about kids' progress is also helpful.

Along with that, introducing the concept of 'setback' and being very persistent in my conversations with staff, in reframing others' descriptions of 'kids showing their "real colours" again' as:  kids experiencing a(notheir) *setback*, has made a difference.  Once it caught on, it became very been freeing for staff in some way.

<snip> <When is real, really real>

This is a great question to ask those who are having the most difficulty letting go of the 'child is the problem" perception.  Asking them, "How long would Johnny have to maintain these desired behaviours, in order for you to be convinced that he has indeed changed and is ready to go back home?" can be helpful.

<snip>How can one avoid the dilemma of the larger system viewing SFT approaches as just being a polite way to "notice the positives" and waiting on edge for the 'bad' behaviour to reappear and reconfirm previously held views about the child?

I am confused about what you mean by the "larger system".  Who in the larger system is of most concern to you regarding this dilemma?As an aside, although I have had my share of frustrations with bureaucrats, paper-pushers and folks sitting and waiting for their retirement, I wanted to share with you one thing that has really made a difference for me in Residential Tx.  That is, noticing the incredibly good-hearts of the people who work day-to-day with the kids.  I am simply in awe of many of them.  These folks put up with so much physical injury and emotional insults by the adolescents, when they (kids) take temporary leave of their sense or lose control of their impulses (experience setbacks) and yet they still come back to work day in and day out and regularly show incredible acts of loving-kindness, caring and generosity to kids who others have long given up on.  I have discovered that some of those staff who can talk the most negative and pessimistic stance are also those who care the deepest for the kid, are the most giving and they are simply hurting along with him/her because they do care so much.  I don't know that I would have the personal fortitude to do what they do, but I do feel that my life is richer for having rubbed shoulders with them.

To Keren From Nick:

Hi Keran,

Thanks for your input...if I understand you correctly you're saying it may be most helpful for those involved with the child's treatment to take a step back and allow others such as the parents and social workers (the larger system) a more active role in discovering some of the child's positive changes for themselves.  In a fundamental way, it may be just as important for those of us in residential treatment to include as many 'influential' people in the child's life as possible to co-create/co-discover positive changes that the child is making.

I guess the persons that I am concerned most about are those parents and social workers that when you ask them the question, "How long will Johnny need to maintain these behaviour changes in order for you to feel that they are indeed substantial?", they become vague in their answers or simply reply that the child will always have these previous problems for life.

Let me give you an example.  We have been taking care of a teenage girl for about a year.  She came for a single parent home.  The parent had increasingly concerned about the daughter's levels of self-isolation, non-attendance to school and also unpredictable episodes of violent behaviour in the home.  The family had sought various levels of service without success.  Since she has been in our treatment program she has made great gains...including moving into a less intrusive setting within our own system, as well as graduating from our contained classroom to a regular highschool setting.  There have been no serious episodes of violent behaviour anywhere, including on home visits.  This young lady is also developed a good peer group while at the same time, pulling off straight A's in an advanced program at school.  Everyone in the child's life (parent, social worker, group home staff) as well as the child, agree that there has been remarkable gains made.  Yet when the question is asked to the dad and social worker when will they know that the changes the child has made will be enough to go back home...the response they give back is that this child "is and always will be a time bomb ready to explode...the boy may not presently show it or may not show it for years but he will explode as he did before and there will be hell to pay".  Therefore it seems unlikely that he will go home or ever be "good enough" or the dad and social worker to agree to take risk needed to agree to allow the child to return home.

The dilemma that this child and other displaced children face is sooner or later they figure out that it may not matter how enormously they change the "influential adults' in their life may continue to make decisions based on who they were and not on who they know they are now.  On top of that, they usually being to view residential treatment as a form of parental punishment or societal control.  At this stage there always exists the potential for the child to fulfill the doom and gloom prophecies rather than to continue to prove his level of genuine change.

Thus the question...When is real really real?

Has anyone had similar experiences and how have you used SFT approaches to deal with them?

P.S. Keran:I too remain in awe of the level of commitment and perseverance residential workers continue to show in their work.

From Insoo Kim Berg to Nick:

Dear Nick;

I fully support Keran's comment about working with the parents and the social services about improvements about the children.

One thing you might want to think about is the rule I learned in the early '80's form John Burnham of Birmingham, England.  Rather than the institutions or therapy taking the credit for the improvements of the child, you may think about how many people have tried to help this child, in their own ways, most of all, the parents and social workers.  I think we need to have some humility to recognize that we did not do it all and therapy or placement in a setting is only a small part of the child's life.  The parent's nurturing, love and many years of hard work is just bearing fruit and we just provided an environment in which these good influence and learning will have a chance to show how much hard they have worked.  Same with the teachers, social workers, judges, probation officers, etc., who have touched the child's life.

I hear from many kids that having been placed on probation was helpful, (not always, not fully helpful), having the social worker do this and that, such as placing the child in the institution, her kind voice, kind look, etc., all have helped, even a little.  And they did!  I think they need to know that what they have done all contributed to the child doing better now because they have.  All we have done is to give the child an opportunity and setting to try and use of these things that they have taught, instilled and have influenced.

Not only is this a respectful way to work with those other professionals, but they also need to know that what they have done have some part in the child's success now.  This is generally a very collaborative stance with everybody in the child's life and also in an indirect way, advocating for the child so that their relationship with these people will remain positive long after we are out of their lives.  I hope this helps.

From Ben Furman to Nick:

Dear Nick 

You raise the issue which is bugging many people working in the helping profession - and driving them nuts.  That is the question, how to convince others of the progress made.  We have discussed this issue in our book Solution Talk, we devoted a whole chapter to this question.  What are the conditions that allow people to acknowledge progress?

Our suggestion is that the key to the solution of this question is sharing credit.  There is a saying and I don't know who said it but it goes something like 'your success is forgiven only if you are generous enough to let others to share it'.   That's perhaps my version of this wisdom but think about it.  You have to buy the acknowledging the contribution of that person.

So basically what I am saying is that the human being is very simple here.  The parent is skeptical about the son's progress to the point that he appears absurd.  This is not absurd.  It is a fact of life.  People do not accept progress unless it is made clear to them that they have been influential in making it happen.  Why?  Because people are so vain?

No.  Not because they are vain but because they are clever.  If they are not credited for the progress they may feel they are blamed for the problem in the first place.  It becomes possible to believe in progress only after you have received absolution from having contributed to the problem and the best way to give that absolution is to claim that the person has contributed to the solution.  Does this make sense to you?  I wish it does because I think it is a powerful and very useful idea.

From Keren to Nick:

You wrote:

<snip>If I understand you correctly, your saying it may be most helpful for those involved with the child's treatment to take a step back and allow others such as the parents and social workers (the larger system) a more active role in discovering some of the child's positive changes for themselves.<end snip>

Yes, I believe that you understood me correctly here.  I guess the 'step back' involves being quite tentative when highlighting exceptions and 'cheerleading' and in addition, asking parents and social workers, in many different ways and on many different occasions, what they themselves have noticed about differences in the youth.

<snip>In a fundamental way, it may be just as important for those of us in residential treatment to include as many 'influential' people in the child's life as possible to co-create/co-discover positive changes that the child is making.<end snip>

Yes I agree here too.

I guess the persons that I am concerned most about are those parents and social workers that when you ask them the question, How long will Johnny need to maintain these behaviours in order for you to feel that they are indeed substantial? Become vague in their answers or simply reply that the child will always have these previous problems for life.

Do you see this statement that they have made (that 'the child will always have these problems') do you see this statement of theirs as their "final" statement or their "current" statement?

As for the vague answers on the part of these folks, I would say this vagueness belies some ambivalence - which is what I would expect them to experience, given the youth's history and their own personal experiences with the youth.  They have probably been on the route of hoping that now the youth has 'really' changed - many, many times before they meet us at Residential Tx.  Now they may be protecting themselves form further disappointments, by being more cautious.  After all if they expect too much from the youth, that is not going to be healthy for him/her either.  Expectations which are too high, can set everyone involved up for more disappointments and for everyone feeling like they have failed.  Could they be letting you know what their pacing is in this situation?  It sounds like it is much slower than what you were hoping for...

<snip>Yet when the question is asked to the parent and social worker when will they know that the changes the child has made will be enough to go back home... the response they give back is that this child 'is and always will be a time bomb ready to explode...the boy may not presently show it or may not show it for years but he will explode as he did before and there will be hell to pay'.  Therefore it seems unlikely that he will go home or ever be 'good enough' or the parent and social worker to agree to take the risk needed to agree to allow the child to return home.<end snip>

By the way, is this staff's conclusion: "it seems unlikely that he will go home" or has this been explicitly stated by dad and social worker? What you quoted is that they explicitly stated that the boy 'is and always will be a bomb ready to explode'.  And well, I guess in some way this fear of the unknown of what lies ahead, does need to be acknowledged.  We don't really have any guarantees about these things.Would they be interested in being part of the team that is working on dismantling the time bomb, or would they rather sit back and watch, supportively while others (including and especially the boy himself) work on the dismantling?

I have been working with a now 16 year old girl in a situation which bears some similarity to the one you described.  In her case, her mother - adoptive mother - would adamantly state that she was rescinding all her parental rights and wants nothing to do with the child, only to change her mind minutes or days or weeks or months later and then back and forth over and over again.  The youth was on a very painful roller coaster ride with her Mom.  The youth eventually came to the conclusion that going home to the Mom would not be helpful to maintain her progress and to move forward toward the goals she had set out for herself (to graduate High School, go to college, start her own business), and instead she decided to go to a 'supervised independent living arrangement' (two girls in an apartment, with a social worker supervising and giving supportive counseling and help) instead of trying to convince her mother that she was ready now to go home.  She has decided to be satisfied with this step forward, for now, and will continue to remain in contact with her mother by phone and for day visits on the weekends.  For her, I think this was a very realistic, practical step.  Maybe someday in the future, her mother will become more assured that the girl has changed and they will slowly build more trust of each other and a different living arrangement may be possible then.

Hope something here was helpful.

From Nick to Keren, Insoo  and Ben:

Perhaps a step in this direction may be in our monthly case conference review instead of starting the meetings by having the child and youth workers present a report that outlines the progress the child has made in the group home and then asking parents, social workers, teachers, etc., if they have noticed these or other changes, we might want to change things around.  By having the parents, child and other persons not directly affiliated with the group home initiate a dialogue about the occasions during the past month where they themselves have noticed differences in the youth and their relationship with the youth.  The residential staff/program can at that point, provide supporting evidence of the changes they have noticed in the group home in their own experiences with the child.  I am thinking, by having the parents, child and others take the lead in identifying change the residential staff can avoid the position of identifying or overselling change that the parent or others have not had an experience of helping create and thus feel skeptical about.  This may also help to correctly pace the client's change in people's perception.  I too have found that client change can happen rapidly and when those involved in the child's life feel that they have not had agency in this process they may feel left behind.

In simpler terms, I am suggesting that the residential program take on a more balanced approach.  A stronger emphasis may need to be placed on having the residential staff/program be the audience for change with those individuals involved in the child's life outside the group home.  This of course compliments having parents and others acting as an audience for the child's change within the group home.  This may represent another way that we can continue to co-create/co-discover opportunities in which everyone's labor bears fruit and is acknowledged accordingly.

Our discussion has left me thinking about the values of listening, acknowledgment, collaboration and humility and how they impact everything we try to do in our service to families...still thinking. END

To join the ongoing discussion on the Solution Focused Therapy List  you can register at their webpage http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?SUBED1=sft-l&A=1